Proper labeling
Posted by aogWednesday, 05 May 2010 at 09:12 TrackBack Ping URL

Remember, those who want to enforce immigration laws are Nazis and those opposing the laws are natural Americans.

P.S. Yes, it’s obviously unfair to tar that entire faction with a few outrageous signs, but that’s the standard that’s been established now.

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erp Wednesday, 05 May 2010 at 10:45

Ahead my time as always, I was called a nazi by fellow mental health board members 30 years ago for opposing deinstitutionalization of mentally ill and mentally handicapped persons. The venom was frightening. We got funding for several group homes to house “clients” who couldn’t fend for themselves. That only lasted a short time and then they were on their own on the streets. Lots of them are still on the streets where they’re now called, the Homeless.

Harry Eagar Wednesday, 05 May 2010 at 13:10

I have no particular opinion about the Arizona law, but I was outraged by the report that some of the anti-law marchers in Los Angeles were wearing yellow stars.

The outrage is perhaps an excessive reaction and personal to me, but the yellow starts — and Mack’s statement — do suggest that not many Americans know what Naziism was. Of course, I can go over to Volokh or several other websites and learn that Naziism was a leftwing movement.

Like I just said, it does suggest that not many Americans know what Naziism was.

erp Wednesday, 05 May 2010 at 15:22

Harry, this American, like many others including some at the VC, knows that nazi’s are leftwingers, just like those kool-aid drinkers in Vermont who didn’t know what they were talking about when they called me one.

FYI - I don’t capitalize nazi since it’s a common noun now, not a proper one.

You may need to review your definition for the various appellations for socialism afoot in the land.

Harry Eagar Wednesday, 05 May 2010 at 17:19

Ah, that would explain why it was the New Dealers who wanted to take out the Nazis and the Republicans who wanted to leave them alone.

You may be able to rewrite history with the average Tea Party bozo who wouldn’t know a socialist if one fell on him from a second-story window, but you cannot do it with me.

Annoying Old Guy Wednesday, 05 May 2010 at 19:27

Exactly, just like the Communists and the Nazis fought in Germany before the Nazis rose to power.

erp Wednesday, 05 May 2010 at 21:19

Harry, Harry.

Republicans were isolationists, not Nazi lovers and FDR only wanted to take out the Nazis after Hitler turned on Uncle Joe.

You can rewrite history with your left wing pals, but not with me.

… and before you start jumping up and down, there were both Republicans and Democrats who admired Hitler for various reasons when he first came on the scene.

Give it up on tea party snarking already. I’m not offended by them and you’re far too smart for that kind of nonsense.

Harry Eagar Thursday, 06 May 2010 at 12:46

Not sure if you are being sarcastic, Guy, but yes, the Communists and Nazis did fight in Germany before 1933. If you are not being sarcastic, you are poorly informed. Hitler’s concentration camps were filled with commies.

Actually, erp, many Republicans were Nazi lovers, especially in the upper Midwest, where Aryan solidarity was strong; although there were some odd crossovers. Catholics were largely Democrats, and the Catholic hierarchy was pro-Nazi, although the common herd were not. The church didn’t pay any attention to the common herd, though, as long as they coughed up. You may not recall that the Catholic Church lined up with Hitler to back Franco, but I do.

I commend to you a book called “The Old Christian Right” for further illumination about the Protestant sects, as well as another, “So It Was True.”

Lend-Lease came before the falling out between Russia and Germany, so you’re inventing things there, too.

Doesn’t anybody study history any more?

Annoying Old Guy Thursday, 06 May 2010 at 13:16

Hmmm, let me work this out. If I was not being sarcastic, that would mean that I think the Communists and Nazis fought in Germany before 1933. In your view such a belief indicates that I am poorly informed. Therefore because I believe in a easily verified historical fact, one which you also belive, I am poorly informed. Once again your use of apparently common words mystifies me.

P.S. Since you believe it to, do you also consider yourself poorly informed?

erp Thursday, 06 May 2010 at 14:30

Harry, I believe I said HItler had supporters from both the left and the right when he first came on the scene. Catholic hierarchies have over the ages and up to the present day covered themselves with the opposite of glory — no news there.

Franco is a nazi because he chased the Soviets out of Spain and prepared it for a peaceful restoration of a constitutional governmemt after his death (ask Eastern Europe if they would traded their fate for that of Spain).

I think Franco was a hero, unfortunately, latterday Spaniards, not knowing their history, have undone all Franco’s good work, but that’s an argument for another day.

erp Thursday, 06 May 2010 at 15:21

Sorry, I forgot. Harry, Lend-Lease had nothing to do with taking out nazi’s as you no doubt already know.

Harry Eagar Thursday, 06 May 2010 at 15:24

No, I thought your comment uncharacteristic, so I guessed perhaps it was sarcastic. If it wasn’t, then it was an unusual admission against your usual line.

I don’t believe Hitler had any significant supporters on the left at any time, except the brief period when Stalin, despairing of an antiHitler alliance with the right in France and England, cut a deal.

Annoying Old Guy Thursday, 06 May 2010 at 15:48

Mr. Eagar;

Your explanation leaves me even more confused. You seem to think that if group A fights against group B, they must not share much if any political ideology. Wouldn’t that also mean that either the Mensheviks or the Bolsheviks weren’t leftists? The entire history of the USSR is littered with one faction of leftists shipping other factions of leftists to the gulag. In fact, one of the most common aspect of leftism is for it to start attacking those closest in ideology and then taking out their actual political opposites. One need merely look at origin of “politically correct” for an example. So, that the Nazis fought the Communists early on tells the tale of what those two groups thought of themselves.

Or more recently, the ChiComs vs. the Vietnamese. Which one of those wasn’t leftist?

P.S. I still await an answer to either of my questions in my previous comment.

erp Thursday, 06 May 2010 at 17:22

Harry, my line hasn’t changed since 1952.

pj Friday, 07 May 2010 at 17:09

Harry - All of Hitler’s voters came from the left. Precinct-by-precinct vote counts show that the electoral gains for the Nazis came almost entirely from the losses of the social democrats, not the Christian/”right” parties. As leftists gave up on democracy, they went to the Nazis.

Peter Saturday, 08 May 2010 at 08:03

my line hasn’t changed since 1952

Parvenu! erp, that is why we true conservatives still don’t completely trust you. :-)

Did you ever hear this joke about Franco? An American is visiting a taverna in Spain during the fifties and asks the fellow beside him in a loud voice “So, what do you think of Franco?”. The guy looks around him wildly, is seized by panic and says: “Ssshhh!”. He motions the American to follow him. They go out the back door and down a byzantine network of quiet, dark streets, reversing course often. Eventually they leave town and cross a large field, then a forest, to the edge of a lake. Maintaining complete silence, the Spaniard uncovers a reed-covered rowboat and motions the American in. He rows him to the center of the lake. After stopping and taking a full ten minutes to satisfy himself no one is listening, he says:

“I like him.”

Pinning the Nazis on either the left or right is a mug’s game. They were sui generis and everybody’s hands were dirty. It wasn’t called a low, dishonest decade for nothing.

AOG: It appears your comments won’t space properly between sentences.

Annoying Old Guy Saturday, 08 May 2010 at 10:45

Mr. Burnet;

I am not quite sure what you mean by your final sentence. Single returns are ignored to avoid a lot of annoying pasting issues. If you want a real line break, you need two returns or <br/>. Or you can use the <PRE> element to enclose things you want unformatted.

Harry Eagar Saturday, 08 May 2010 at 12:44

Dunno where you get the idea that Nazi votes came from the left. ‘Red Weding,’ the biggest concentration of leftists in Germany does not show up as pro-Nazi in Goebbels diaries, and he ought to have known.

The most thorough investigation of voting patterns in a district I know, William Allen’s, ‘The Nazi Seizure of Power,’ does not support that. And a brief search turns up a later study using techniques not available to Allen that reaches similar conclusions: ‘The Electoral Geography of Weimar Germany: Exploratory Spatial Data Analyses (ESDA) of Protestant Support for the Nazi Party, John O’Loughlin. From abstract: ‘The results are consistent in showing a voting surface of great complexity with many local clusters that differ from the regional trend. The Weimar German electoral map does not show much evidence of a nationalized electorate but is better characterized as a mosaic of support for “milieu parties”, mixed across class and other social lines and defined by a strong attachment to local traditions, beliefs and practices.’

The fact that ideologues fight savage battles among themselves does not mean that there are not also battles between competing ideologies. Sheesh.

Peter’s comment is pertinent. The Nazis promised everything to everybody and somehow got a lot of people to overlook the contradictions. But at the level of conscious political maneuvering, it was the nationalist, rightwing parties that thought they could work with the Nazis, control them; not the Social Democrats.

Internationally, no one imagined that the Nazis were leftists. They were supported by rightists and the copycat parties were rightist. Ernst Nolte’s ‘Three Faces of Fascism’ leaves no doubt. He starts with Action Francaise. Nobody would call it leftist.

erp Saturday, 08 May 2010 at 15:07

Harry, Internationally no one here cares about it?

I believe we’ve already agreed to disagree on right and left wing stuff.

There has not been to my knowledge any right wing movements in Europe in my memory — what you think of as right wing, ain’t.

Peter, no Frog imprecations s’il vous plaît.

Annoying Old Guy Saturday, 08 May 2010 at 16:16

Mr. Eagar;

The fact that ideologues fight savage battles among themselves does not mean that there are not also battles between competing ideologies. Sheesh.

You are the one who first used that logic — now you discard your own argument with a “sheesh”? Is it once again something that is relevant when you use it to support your claim, and irrelevant when used against you?

Harry Eagar Sunday, 09 May 2010 at 22:10

erp, I really have no idea what you would accept as a rightwing movement, but the rest of the world sees plenty of what it thinks of as rightwing movements in Europe, from Jean Marie Le Pen to the Latin Mass Catholics to the Muslim Brotherhood.

More postively, the pure beer advocacy groups.

erp Monday, 10 May 2010 at 07:16

Harry, you keep making my points for me. The rest of the world is wrong. My definition of right wing/conservative is your definition of classic liberalism. Do you think that’s what Le Pen represents? Tancredi? Birchers? The Muslim Brotherhood? The KKK?

Harry Eagar Monday, 10 May 2010 at 13:06

MY definition of classic liberalism includes emancipation of the Jews, and so Nazis are not classic liberals. Or any other kind of liberals.

Rightwing, in a European context, is pretty much ‘the Vatican.’ All the things it advocated, such as religious intolerance, Jew-hatred, authoritarianism, obscurantism — you find those with Le Pen, Tancredi, Birchers, the Muslim Brotherhood, KKK, Sarah Palin etc.

Annoying Old Guy Monday, 10 May 2010 at 13:11

Of course, reasonable observers don’t find any of those things in Sarah Palin. That you do calls all the rest of your observations on those subjects very suspect.

erp Monday, 10 May 2010 at 15:34

Harry, we have enough trouble coming to a consensus on definitions of terms in U.S. politics.

I truly don’t give a tinker’s damn about Europe.

Nazis are socialists, i.e., the polar opposite of classic liberals.

What does religious intolerance, Jew-hatred, authoritarianism, obscurantism have to do with Palin? It’s the left who are those things and more as Obama et al. are demonstrating almost on a hourly basis.

Annoying Old Guy Monday, 10 May 2010 at 16:09

erp;

Eagar’s inclusion of Palin in that list is pure derailment, a rhetorical sleight of mind. The point is to get us debating that instead of the current topic of interest. He does it with Bush as well.

Harry Eagar Monday, 10 May 2010 at 16:22

Oh, I just thought I throw that in because Palin just emitted another ‘old Christian right’ canard about the Founders.

And, of course, obscurantism are her, too.

Two out of four ain’t bad.

She isn’t a classic liberal, but that doesn’t make her a Nazi.

Annoying Old Guy Monday, 10 May 2010 at 16:45

erp;

See? He’s shifted the entire conversation. Meanwhile, I am still waiting any response to my original two questions or an explanation of ‘sheesh’ applying to his own logic.

As for Palin, we have not only an unsourced quote but an unquoted one. That’s the kind of hard hitting facts you just can’t deny. And Eagar may not think it makes her a Nazi, but clearly he thinks it makes her equivalent to the KKK and the Muslim Brotherhood. That’s the kind of moderate, nuanced rhetoric that truly persuades.

erp Monday, 10 May 2010 at 17:22

Harry, I said I was the equivalent of a classic liberal, not Palin. She can speak for herself.

aog, cut Harry some slack. He’s twisting himself into a pretzel trying to fit his old time lefty views into a world where they’ve been thoroughly debunked.

I find the exercise very entertaining.

Harry Eagar Monday, 10 May 2010 at 18:34

Fox transcript: ‘our constitution of course acknowledging that our unalienable rights come from god not man…’

You might think that an aspirant for national office would have gotten as far as the FIRST THREE WORDS of the ur-document of the republic, but you’d be wrong in the case of this aspirant.

erp, I don’t think you’re a Nazi, either. However, the American right is not made up of classical liberals. Unless Palin is a leftist.

erp Monday, 10 May 2010 at 18:46

Harry, maybe many of those you think of as being the American right, aren’t … and thanks for removing me from the ranks of the nazi’s.

Annoying Old Guy Monday, 10 May 2010 at 19:56

You might think that an aspirant for national office would have gotten as far as the FIRST THREE WORDS of the ur-document of the republic,

No, years of watching Democratic Party politicians, and more recently our current President, long ago cured me of that.

Peter Tuesday, 11 May 2010 at 04:34

Harry, how can you possibly besmirch the good name of moderate folks like the KKK and the Muslim Brotherhood by lumping them in with the likes of Sarah Palin?

That woman is singlehandedly repealing Godwin’s Law.

Annoying Old Guy Tuesday, 11 May 2010 at 09:54

I need to start accumulating “Eagar’s Rules”. Today’s instance is that if someone confuses the preambles of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, then they are the political and moral equivalent of the KKK and the Muslim Brotherhood. I will remember to use that on a non-conservative, at which point I expect to get a “you can’t mark someone as ignorantly evil just on the basis of simple misstatement. Sheesh!”

erp Tuesday, 11 May 2010 at 10:25

The Declaration of Independence

When in the Course of human events … the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, … .

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — …

After 70 years these words still bring tears to my eyes. I can’t bear the thought that creeps like those in Obama’s world and other leftover lefties will cause the end of a nation brought into being by them.

Harry Eagar Tuesday, 11 May 2010 at 13:47

I dunno, next thing I expect to hear that Ron Paul is a leftist based on his republication of the Secret Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.

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